tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115375869553591839.post5250313096075238915..comments2023-10-09T11:23:08.602-05:00Comments on Taking Place: Giving Yourself to the AlgorithmRagothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02032216046972764021noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115375869553591839.post-68726082366812878412008-08-27T15:37:00.000-05:002008-08-27T15:37:00.000-05:00Let me try to offer a few brief comments now, I'll...Let me try to offer a few brief comments now, I'll fill in more later.<BR/><BR/>First, I wanted to avoid language, as it's a messy problem that makes this whole discussion even worse. Writing and reading are better examples, because they are obviously acquired behaviors. No one knows how to read straight from the womb. This is not to say that you know how to speak from the womb either, but there is good evidence that there are deep structures of the brain that aid in language acquisition. Basically, you come primed to learn a basic grammar and vocabulary, which you then practice and expand constantly, every day of your life. But, you're pretty much hard-wired to pick up a language. It's similar, but not identical, to learning in the way that I've been discussing it. A better example would be odd words that you don't use every day. SAT vocabulary words, for example. If you don't use these words frequently, you do forget them.<BR/><BR/>(side note - the process of learning, as I stated, is not fully understood at this time. However, we have evidence that long-term potentiation [increase in neuron synaptic connections] and probably mylenation [increase in the fatty tissues that surround neuron axons] contribute to learning in significant ways. Brain plasticity decreases as you age to some degree, and major culling of synapses begins in adolescence, so the greatest number of synaptic connections [which may be your best chance of learning something - may be] is just before then. So, for a lot of people in this country, you learn only one language in this time period, making the acquisition of a second language a much harder process. To have true fluency, you probably want to be exposed to and learn a language before that stage. Of course, there's also the problem of the brain not fully developing until a bit later...oh, it's a really complex problem. If you want, I'll try to do a brief write up of some of issues in memory. Short answer is - we don't have it all figured out yet, but we've got some really interesting stuff going on right now.)<BR/><BR/>Gaijin basically has the right of it - the forgetting curve never goes away. You can only hope to level it off to such a point that it would take a very long time for you to forget it. This is the point of the spacing effect - you do have to constantly re-present the information, but the interval becomes longer and longer. Any trigger after a certain point will probably allow you to recall the information, but you want it to be automatic.<BR/><BR/>Jason, you likewise have a very good idea. Rote memorization is not helpful for more complex ideas. There are all sorts of ways that cognitive psychologists have discovered that we can help along our own learning. One of them is through active encoding, which is basically what you describe. Create a story, a visual scene, anything to aid you in identifying and deeply embedding the information in as many ways as possible. The forgetting curve levels off further with these added techniques, but, unfortunately, is still always present, as you likewise agree. So - an ideal technique would be to use the spacing effect to your advantage, while also using active encoding of the information. The more trails and trains of thought you can leave yourself, the better your chance at recall in the end, which is always the goal. Note, this is still considered memorization in the cognitive sense, just not how we often use the word, by which we typically mean the rote-repetition of facts.<BR/><BR/>Also, let me know how SuperMemo works out. Can you link me to the freeware version you found?<BR/><BR/>Finally, Okada, yes, we are now able to implement better learning techniques in training children. Most important of all would be to teach them how to think, and how to learn. These are two very important issues that most people have no education in whatsoever, which leads to a lot of people bombing out of more advanced course work. They have the capability to learn, they just haven't trained themselves how yet.Ragothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02032216046972764021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115375869553591839.post-36989999885616497772008-08-27T12:32:00.000-05:002008-08-27T12:32:00.000-05:00I downloaded the supermemo 98 (freeware!). It has...I downloaded the supermemo 98 (freeware!). It has a pretty easy learning curve (just start by hitting the "learn" button and a tutorial starts). Unfortunately, a lot of the pre-programmed topics (language, vocab, grammar, economics, etc.) that are usually available through the site are being re-uploaded. So, I've given up today on trying to do anything more with it.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642417044640155841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115375869553591839.post-8192428614461807672008-08-27T11:04:00.000-05:002008-08-27T11:04:00.000-05:00I've been very keen about how I learn because of a...I've been very keen about how I learn because of all of the god-forsaken exams that I had to 1. memorize, (2. integrate?), 3. spit out/(reflect on?) later. For me, brute memorization does work when it comes to lists, facts, vocabulary and other atomic pieces of information that can be put into multiple choice or fill in the blank answers. I've gone back to much of the material I've put into my long-term memory before and do have a difficult time recalling it at level worthy of taking a test. <BR/><BR/>Overall, I find that the more reliable way for me to retain, recall, and integrate new information is not through memorization but through narrative and explanation - long trains of thought with facts, interpretations, opinions, etc. that give my memory a complex body of connections with other things that I know. <BR/><BR/>Now, having put all of that down for the past months, I haven't so much forgotten it as can't recall all of the pieces in as much depth on the fly. I do have to go over my notes, reread texts, and just spend time thinking about it again. It's much the same with German, though a bit more difficult because it's been a year. Long-term memory recall seems to be less about losing the information than about not being able to recall it as easily, quickly, or accurately as when you were in the middle of learning and using it.<BR/><BR/>I think I'll try the memory program if there's an accessible copy of it. I do have a social life as Ragoth knows, but I'll see what I can get out of it and report back.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642417044640155841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115375869553591839.post-19159964332334936952008-08-26T18:26:00.000-05:002008-08-26T18:26:00.000-05:00I'm no expert, so this is just my take on your Eng...I'm no expert, so this is just my take on your English idea. Maybe the quantity of repetition is related to the time retained. A month may not be enough time to forget it, but with a little more time it certainly can dwindle. Remember Yoshiko? She began forgetting Japanese after a year or two in the US.<BR/><BR/>But yeah, the post is interesting. Curious to check out this program a little bit.DirtyGaijinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06728440883556576866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115375869553591839.post-25315967046996927252008-08-26T17:49:00.000-05:002008-08-26T17:49:00.000-05:00What do you know about the learning process of chi...What do you know about the learning process of children? Obviously we use the English language on a daily basis so it is probably the best example of repetition and using that information to retain it. But I find it hard to believe that if I go a month without using it I would lose any of it at all.<BR/><BR/>Going on the premise that I wouldn't lose any of the language after a month of zero use.<BR/><BR/>It is commonly thought that children soak up information like sponges, hence the learning a language gets harder as your get older phrases.<BR/><BR/>Do you think that would be due to me learning it as a child or just having it so ingrained from previous repetition and use?<BR/><BR/>If children are better at learning than adults do you think science will be able to harness that and turn it on for people still learning in school?(I know it must be a more complex issue than a switch on and off but I hope you understand what I am asking.)<BR/><BR/>Overall a very informative post. The brain has always fascinated me.Okadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08093458467594799714noreply@blogger.com